Ep 186: The Psychological Aspects of Ovum Donation with Dr. Georgia Witkin
Fertility Forward Episode 186:
Choosing ovum donation is an emotional and potentially daunting process. But there is great power in embracing it as the best decision for you and as a gift you are giving yourself instead of as an obstacle to overcome. Today on Fertility Forward, Dr. Georgia Witkin is back to discuss ovum and sperm donation and the emotional effects of each. Tuning in, you’ll hear all about how Dr. Witkin helps patients become excited about ovum donation by busting some myths about the process, bonding concerns parents may have, why these concerns don’t actually come to fruition, and so much more! We delve into how sperm donation differs from egg donation from a psychological perspective before discussing the importance of normalizing donation for the child. We touch on how we use language to help our patients change their mindset about sperm or ovum donation, and why stress is not responsible for infertility. Finally, we discuss the importance of prioritizing self-care as women. To hear all this and, as always, what we are grateful for, be sure to press play now!
Rena: Hi everyone, we are Rena and Dara, and welcome to Fertility Forward. We are part of the wellness team at RMA of New York, a fertility clinic affiliated with Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City. Our Fertility Forward podcast brings together advice from medical professionals, mental health specialists, wellness experts, and patients because knowledge is power and you are your own best advocate.
We are so excited to welcome back to Fertility Forward, a recurring guest, Dr. Georgia Witkin, a clinical psychologist and Director of Psychological and Wellness services at RMA of New York. Thank you so much for coming back on, Dr. Witkin. And we are very excited to talk with you today specifically about ovum donation and everything that may come with that from the emotional aspect. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing your words of wisdom advice with our listeners.
Dr. Witkin: Thank you for inviting me back. I mean, not everyone gets invited back.
Rena: Only an elite group of recurring guests. So you are one of them. So yeah, thank you so much for coming on. You know, this comes up so much, you know, in conversation with patients, you know, when considering a donor. And I'm actually gonna amend that to say both ovum donation and sperm donation.
Dr. Witkin: Right.
Rena: You know, I think it's really important to acknowledge both of those as options and what may arise for an individual or a couple when faced with that choice.
Dr. Witkin: So I get to see couples typically after they've tried IVF or try to have children without any intervention at all, and they haven't been successful. And they've been told by their physician that really their best chance is a donated egg, because either their eggs are aged, and therefore when they go to replicate, they break, they crumble, the DNA is damaged, and that is generally what terminates a pregnancy naturally. And they're never happy about it. Nobody comes into my office going, yay, I have permission to use donor eggs. After they walk out of my office, I'm happy to say most of them are saying this is gonna be an exciting adventure. And the way they go from, you know, why do I have to even think about this? It's horrible, to this is gonna be an exciting adventure. It's just clearing up myths. So, I mean, we can start there because most women come in feeling like the donor is giving them a baby, that there is a baby in the donated egg, and that's poultry. That's not human reproduction, there's no baby in the donor's egg, we're not losing a baby if we're not using our egg. The only thing in an egg or a sperm is genetic material. Number one. Number two, the genetic material is not even from us. If everyone pictures their great, great, great, great, great-grandparents having three kids, and they each have three kids, and they have three kids, and they have three kids, within five generations, there's over three trillion combinations of DNA in a set of eggs or a set of sperm. So you're not giving up a copy of you, and you're not getting from a donor a copy of her. And if you're picking a donor by gene pool, your donor, not this is not the child's donor. The donor is your donor if you are the woman. You're picking a donor who will have similar genetics to you.
Dara: Interesting. Interesting way of looking at it. I never would have thought that.
Dr. Witkin: I'll take it one step further. If you're using a sibling, a full sibling, say mother-father, no divorces, let's say it's the two females, her set of eggs genetically in the array is identical to yours. Because you have the same source. So every egg in your body matches some egg in her body. So if a sister gives a sister an egg and same-sex couple, if a sibling donates egg or sperm, you're getting back your own gene core. Which brings me to point number two. Understanding that the donor is your donor, not the child's. This is your donor. You're picking her, you're matching her to you genetically, not in just looks, because you may be very surprised and disappointed if you try to find the same hair and the same nose and so forth, and then you get her great-great-great-great Aunt Fanny's characteristics instead, or Uncle Harry's, and that can happen even with all of us. So understanding that she is your donor, she's giving you a transfusion of DNA, also changes things because then you're going to go and have your own child. Number three, what changes a lot of feelings is understanding that every woman on the face of the earth who's ever had a baby started her baby with outside donation. Who's the outside donor to every woman who's ever been pregnant?
Dara: A sperm?
Dr. Witkin: Yeah. But we never look at it that way. So 50% is coming as an outside donation. Our body's happy to have it in an egg, too. There's no rejection, there's nothing alien about it. So if you pick a donor knowing she's your donor, and then you pick the sperm donor either from California Cryo or from an array of boyfriends or from friends or from your spouse, it's still outside donation. But once you have an egg and sperm coming together, you then have a set of instructions because the only way to build a baby on this planet is a woman's body has to build the baby, not just in her body, but from her body. And this makes it possible because the young egg, when it replicates into two cells and the two into four, and the four into eight, there's no splitting, there's a crossover, there are no problems where nature says, uh-uh, I can't read these instructions.
Rena: So, what about, you know, the couples that come in and they they hear all of this and okay, well, you know, I didn't I didn't know that, feeling a lot better. You know, one of the most common questions I get asked is this fear of, well, how am I going to attach to the child? And I'm afraid that I'm not going to be able to love a child that, you know, isn't 100% from myself and my partner or myself. You know?
Dr. Witkin: I get that all the time also. I don't think in 25 years that's ever been a reality after someone had a baby. I am in touch with so many as you are, Rena. You know, they stay in touch. Here's the reality. And this helps, first let's talk about the pregnancy reality. After the egg and sperm are brought together, which is a set of instructions, as I said, they replicates into two cells, stretches, replicate, now you have four, that replicates, you have eight, then multiplies. And as this ball of cells gets bigger and bigger, it eventually needs nourishment. So at the end of a week, it needs a uterus, it goes into your uterus just as if it fell out of your fallopian tube because it had reached the bottom and was so big. If it implants this, I'm gonna use the word baby loosely, but this baby, the beginning of this baby that you've created, you and your partner, this baby is going to take your protein right out of your muscles to build its muscles. It doesn't have teeth in a stomach, you're not eating for two. It's gonna take your protein, your body's gonna go, yay, I'm pregnant, and replace the protein. Baby will take your sugar, the baby will take 30% of your calcium, believe me, my teeth remember that. The baby will take your minerals to build its joints, and for nine months, you're gonna have epigenetic interaction. So if Rena, you and I had identical twin embryos, or Dara, you and Rena had identical twin embryos, and one of you had more serotonin naturally, which is the happiness hormone in your brain, and the other had more dopamine, which is more obsessive-compulsive like me, after nine months, different neurons would have been activated during all of that development. So even though they were identical twins, by the time they're born, there would be differences. Or if one of you had more nitrogen, which encourages muscle mass, and the other, like me, you know, ate cookies all day and watched TV, the kids would be born different, and yours, Rena, would be kicking and running, and the other would have to like be proud of them. So not only are you building the baby physically, but every cell in that child's body is from you, and it's not like adoption. Nobody gave you a baby, it's still going to be shaped by your environment. When the baby is born, is there any question about bonding? On the internet, I'm sure you've seen this. There's a lot of talk now about skin to skin and first touch, and that's very important and necessary for bonding. Just as these patients that you see, Rena, and I see, and Dara, think that it's important to have your genetics for bonding. If that were true, everyone would be bonded to their delivery nurse. That's the first person who's holding us and so forth. The truth is that I don't think I've had one patient who's held their baby, even if it's a week later because it needed an incubator, at any point who didn't look at this baby and bond. Now, if you didn't have ovum donation and postpartum depression, you can't say, oh my God, that's because it wasn't my genetics. When it's donor egg, this has been the experience. I had somebody call me really just a few months ago, who during COVID, Rena, was going through exactly what you were saying. Am I going to be able to bond? Is it going to be mine? Am I going to feel the same way? I have a 12-year-old that was my egg. And is it going to be different? She called me this year. She said, I owe you a call. I know I called you every day during COVID and I couldn't decide, but I went ahead when COVID was over. I'm sorry I didn't let you know. But I now have a child that's about three years old. And if I could go back and do it again with my own egg instead, I wouldn't do it. I said, Really? Why not? She said, because I don't want to change one thing about this child. Oh my God, I'm so in love with this child. I was worried about bonding. What was I thinking? I bonded with my dog. It's not genetically mine. I sometimes even love my partner. Not genetically mine. I adore this child. And I wouldn't change one thing about it. So I said, is there anything different? And I think you'll both find this interesting too. She said, Yeah, it's really different. I said, What's different? Not the bonding, not the love. What's different is I looked at this child and I said, Let me see who they are. Let me help them be whoever they are. And it's such a better way of parenting, instead of what we did with the first, which was narcissistic identification. That's like my side, that's like your side, that's like your side, and I don't like it. That's like it should be like my side. That we started parenting the older son, just the way we're parenting the ovum donation child, who is seeing who he is and letting him be whoever he is.
Dara: Wow, that's fascinating.
Dr. Witkin: I learned a lot.
Dara: Great approach. I think that's a great... I mean, I wish I would have heard that before I had my kids. It's true. Our natural tendencies are to be somewhat narcissistic and to look inwards. Oh, she has that characteristic of mine. Oh, that is yours. And it's seeing them for who they are, not necessarily in relation to you, but who they are as a person, it's a really nice way of seeing things.
Dr. Witkin: Let's get real also. You can use your own egg and have a kid like I did, who looks nothing like you, is nothing like you, acts nothing like you. I have a daughter, one daughter, and then I lost my ovaries and my uterus. My mother had had five cancers and they were being prophylactic. And there I am with a daughter I was thrilled to have, who has never been asked if she's related to me. She has dark hair and dark eyes and dark skin, and she's tall, and her brain is totally different. She's a lawyer. We had the same nose job, and still nobody says you're related. That was with my egg. And she has three blue-eyed, blonde-haired boys. So she must have had some of those eggs floating around, some of those, that DNA. They look nothing like her. She was asked when she was younger and carrying them, are you the nanny? So I think we forget that when we hear ovum donation, but remember it as we're going through the nine months and certainly through the first nine years. And when people say to recipients of ovum donation, so you know, how do you feel when someone says the baby looks like you or the baby doesn't look like you? And typically the patients laugh and say the same way you feel when they say that to you.
Rena: Sure. I think, you know, I think it's hard for patients to conceptualize sometimes, right? And make that jump, you know, because they had, you know, a vision, right?
Dr. Witkin: Yeah.
Rena: Or, you know, I I think the way you explain it is so helpful, right? I think for for a woman to to understand, okay, well, here's what's going on, you know, when I'm carrying, right? It's really getting all of this stuff from me. Okay, I feel a lot more connected, you know.
Dr. Witkin: And interacting with you.
Rena: Correct.
Dr. Witkin: With who you are.
Rena: Okay. But now what about the male that is told you need a sperm donor? Right. And and the male then doesn't have the opportunity to carry and connect and interact at that level.
Dr. Witkin: It's a great question. It's so different. When it's the male, you're right, they are not creating their physiological, biological child, because a woman is when she's pregnant, it might not be hers genetically, but she's the gestational carrier. She is the biological parent, meaning her body built this baby. So if you define father as the person who raises you, loves you, is your role model, you know, help create you because he's there and choosing. And if you're very clear that the male sperm donor is a donor to the male who will be the father, not the child, it usually is easier for them to select and to be happy that they are contributing. And again, I don't think I've ever spoken, you'll tell me if you have, to anyone who's already had a child who is a male and used a donor and did not feel bonded.
Rena: No, well, that's the thing. You know, I say to my patients the same thing that you are, right? That, you know, I've been doing this now for quite a number of years, and I've never had anybody come back and, you know, same as you, it's such a blessing to keep in touch with people. I've never had anyone come back and tell me anything less than, wow, this is absolutely the child we or I was meant to have. This is exactly how it how it should have been. You know, I'm so I'm so grateful. I love this child so much. No one's ever come back and said anything less than that. But I think for a lot of people, you know, again, it's the process of getting there.
Dr. Witkin: Right.
Rena: And then also the fears of telling family, or what if someone says, oh, the baby looks just like you? What do I say?
Dr. Witkin: Say thank you. Seriously. Rena, tell me what you see. I see that after they have the child, that it doesn't affect them the way they anticipated it would. They do smile and say thank you, or, you know, the woman, if she's told it doesn't look like her, yeah, I was just the carrier. The same thing that we would say if it was our egg, or that the father would say if it was the sperm, right?
Rena: Exactly. You know, I think it's the anticipatory anxiety. It's a lot of times, you know, because I think this is still something it's not necessarily people don't send out a birth announcement and then also on the announcement say, oh, PS, we used a donor. Right? And so then, you know, humans they want to connect with someone else that has already done it to say, like, oh, okay, but I met with this person, they did this, and it's great. Therefore, now I can see it from myself. And so I think that can be difficult too, because a lot of times people just, I think, can feel alone. They don't know who to talk to, they don't know who to ask. They also fear, I think a lot of times judgment from family or friends. You know, I think one of the mindset shifts I'm sure you work on with patients too is shifting the mindset from the idea that I'm broken or it's my fault, or I'm not working properly and changing that mentality.
Dr. Witkin: Right. So here's what I recommend because on the internet, again, Dr. Internet, the therapist.
Rena: Dr. ChatGPT these days.
Dr. Witkin: Most of the recommendations come from adoption and they're not appropriate for ovum donation. Number one, the recommendation is tell early, tell often, it's their journey, and it's a felt secret. Well, there are no felt secrets. First of all, that's you know, pretty much psychobabble. And number two, that came from adoption, which you can't explain to a two or three-year-old, right? So-and-so, or you know, you grew in someone else's belly and blah, blah, blah, blah, and now this is your home. That's what they are explaining to somebody who's three. You try to explain microscopic eggs and sperm that are not chicken eggs, and you try to explain genetics, and you try to explain the fact that you have three trillion combinations from your entire gene pool, and so does everybody else. You can't, and nor is it appropriate. You try to explain egg donation to someone who is two or three or four, or even five, and you know they're gonna go to school and talk about it, and you know parents are gonna call you. Why is your kid telling my kid about sperm and eggs, etc.? So it's not even fair to put them in that position. And kids are anxious when they're told about anything that they don't understand. The reason you're disclosing, if we keep clear why we're disclosing, is so that they know their health history, not their mother's medical history, which required eggs and so forth, but their medical history. For example, and I think we've spoken about this when I've been on before. The reason I lost my ovaries and my uterus after I gave birth to my daughter was because my mother had already had five cancers in her 30s, in her 40s, in her 50s, in her 60s, and in her 70s. So they took the ovaries, they took the uterus, etc. Imagine if my mother had ovum donation and I was not in line for her genetics, and she never told me. And we were taking out my ovaries and my uterus and limiting me to one child for no reason. So that's the paradigm. You're telling the child about the fact that some of the genetics that you gave them through your donor are not genetics that they can trace to your side of the family. So I always recommend that when you think they're ready to understand, they've looked through a microscope. Some kids are ready at five, at six, at seven, just do it before they're teenagers. We can do a different podcast about that. But when you think they're ready to hear it, ask them if they've heard of ovum donation or sperm donation. If they say yes, I would start by saying, I have good news for you. Not explaining why. You're gonna have to start with what was wrong. I have good news for you. You're not in line for grandma's allergies, Uncle Harry's stomach problems, you know, Aunt Fanny's burping, whatever. The doctors gave us ovum donation. And they usually say, Who's the donor? Well, very often it's an anonymous donor. The answer is, oh my goodness, there were hundreds of donors, and the match was to me, you lucky kid. That's why you're smart and good looking. That was my donor. Blame your allergies on your father, blame your glasses on your father. It doesn't have to be that serious a disclosure because then you're signaling the child. And Rena, I'm sure you'll echo with they pick up on what we seem to be feeling and saying. And if you say, I have good news, and you know, because it's my donor, and blame it all on your father, and then definitely add guilt. I'm saying that tongue in cheek, because Rena and I and Dara are never out to make anyone feel guilty. But when I say guilt, I recommend you let the child know you are the mother. And by the way, I was pregnant for nine months. That's 6,384 hours. So I want you to know that. And I want you to know I threw up for 13 weeks, and I want you to know I was in labor for two days. And by the way, every cell in your body comes from me. And then, of course, your partner, if you have one, can chime in. Do you want to see a video of you being born? Just to make sure they know that you're the mother and the father, if he's offering the video, he's obviously in the delivery room. And most kids say no, I'll throw up in my mouth, but they certainly know that you're the mom. And then you can explain. Well, here is the good news that you should know about your genetic history. So, disclosure, as I said, if you keep in mind that it's for their medical history, again, it becomes less of a trauma and more informational.
Rena: Well, and what's interesting, you know, when you were sharing that, what struck me was like I was like, wow, I actually never thought of it from this perspective, you know, because day in, day out, you know, the same thing. I listen to people, how do I share? This is such a big thing, you know, like capital B, capital T, right? And it's like, huh, well, what if the perspective is just this is just what it is. I'm just sharing a fact with you. Like, you know, I don't want to minimize it and say, like, oh, well,
Dr. Witkin: No, no, I love that though.
Rena: Right. It's information. But that it's, you know, become such a thing, people build up, right? And it's sort of, you know, again, not to to to minimize or invalidate, but it's about how you deliver the information. And if you make it a big deal, right? If you make this a big thing where you sit your friends and family down, have something to tell you, or using a donor, you make it very serious and very big, their response is gonna feed off of that. And and they'll think, oh, well, we should respond in kind, right?
Dr. Witkin: Good point.
Rena: You know, and same with a child, right? If you make it this big thing, right, they're picking up on that instead of…
Dr. Witkin: Just normalize it.
Rena: Right, just normalize it. Like, yeah, this is what happened. You know, just you know, I had a vaginal birth or a C-section. This is what happened. Oh, yeah, we used a donor. Okay, let's move on to the next topic.
Dr. Witkin: You know, the National Institute of Mental Health says that when it's presented this way, you know, they meant factual, they never saw my script, but 90% of kids are fine with third party after disclosure, and the other 10% don't care one way or the other. But there's no great history of trauma, which is interesting.
Rena: Yeah, I think that's great, actually.
Dr. Witkin: I'm gonna put in a plug also. I write a column for Psychology Today, which the two of you know, but a lot of people listening might not. And my column is called Chronicles of Infertility. I have 90 blogs of, and if you research, you know, Georgia Witkin, Psychology Today, and put in ovum donation, you'll see quite a few columns that kind of review a lot of this, saying exactly what Rena just said. Here's how you can normalize it, here's how you can make it clear that you're giving them medical information, even gestational caring. I encourage patients to say to their kids, if they point to somebody who's pregnant and was I in your belly, after they explain that babies don't grow in a belly, so no one's pooping out babies and you have a stomach ache, you're not pregnant, that there's a uterus, but I encourage them to say, when you are a week old, because again, it's when the blastocyst is, you know, developed for seven days that it needs nutrition. So when you were a week old, so-and-so started nurturing you for us in her uterus, and when you were able to take nurturing, you were born and came back home. So, as you were recommending, Rena, it's about normalizing everything. Just you know, here's the facts.
Rena: Sure. The other thing I would I would point out too, which I don't know if you see this a lot, the importance of, you know, if it is a couple going through this versus an individual, yeah. A lot of times I see people take it on as either right, like my problem or your problem instead of our problem. So number one, I always work to change the language around problem, that okay, let's change this from problem to something more positive. And then number two, that it's again, if this is a couple, that it's something that you are doing together. It's not, okay, you know, one person has faulty parts or whatever, and so it's their issue and you have to work through it by yourself. It's okay, the two of you on a family build, and this is something that's happened along the way. How are you going to navigate it together?
Dr. Witkin: I love that. What do you say to them to help them switch their language? Or do you give them words that you suggest, like challenge or adventure, or what do you say? I like I I like that.
Rena: A lot of times I put it in their court, right? Because I want it to feel authentic to them. You know, I'll point out and say, oh, well, you just referred to this as a problem. Let's do a mindset shift around that. How can we make this more positive?
Dr. Witkin: That's great.
Rena: Right. And so a lot of times I'll I'll put it on them to come up with a word if they can't, you know, similar to what you said. You know, it's not, why is this happening to me? It's what is this teaching me? What can I learn from this? That this is an obstacle in our way, if that's how they perceive it. But, you know, again, I don't like to use obstacle per se, because that's also seems like it's something to navigate. A lot of times I use the analogy of, okay, in your book of life, you wrote this chapter on family building. And the way you wrote it, it was you were conceiving at home, you were peeing on a stick, you were being surprised, you were having the gender reveal. Now, though, we have to go back and edit your chapter because none of that happened. You're in a reproductive endocrinologist's office. You're now at the part of your chapter where you've been told that you need to use a donor. So it's not that you're not going to get to the next chapter in your book. It's not that you're not getting where you want to go. It's just we need to edit that story for you. And so, how do we go back and how do we edit this? So, you know, again, you're still getting where you want to go, but it's not the route that you thought you were taking, right? It's like, okay, this road was closed, got to go back, you got to take a different road. You can still get there. But now I just need to figure out this road was closed. So, what's my alternate route?
Dr. Witkin: I love that because most people don't have a Rena to help them do that.
Rena: Or a Georgia.
Dr. Witkin: Yeah, and if they're alone at night, you know, just thinking about all of this, it's going to be awfulized.
Rena: Sure, right, exactly. The mind goes to, you know, bad places and I think it catastrophizes, you know, it's also overwhelming and and scary, right? Because it's also like, okay, well, then how do I even do this, right? And then people, you know, get anxious about that.
Dara: The unknown.
Rena: Right, exactly. You know, so much of of this, you know, like is with anything in life that's feeling stressful, right? Is is helping to ground someone, give them real information, you know, again, help them rewrite the chapter.
Dr. Witkin: Along those lines, I think so many couples and individuals going through this really have to navigate their friends and families in a similar way. Not only do they not want to see, you know, broken if everybody else is busy having babies and now it's you know the third Thanksgiving that they're there. And Aunt Fanny is saying, so it's your turn, are you gonna have a baby? You know, after you tried for three years. Or if you share with Aunt Fanny, I really did have an Aunt Fanny, by the way. She really was. So, and if you share with Aunt Fanny that you've been trying, you know, and you have tears in your eyes, and because you think maybe that'll, you know, shut her up. That's a clinical term, shut her up. So very often Aunt Fanny will say, Well, that's because you wanted too much. If you would just relax, it would happen, or you've been working too hard, or and it breaks my heart. You know, my area of research and behavioral genetics is stress. And I am here to say, as the two of you are all the time, stress does not create infertility. If it did, there'd be no humans on the face of the earth. Because women are always in charge of everything. And whenever your sense of control goes down, stress goes up. So women are always stressed, not every minute, but when the woman starts blaming herself or her friends or her family, imply that she's her own worst enemy and she could do something about it just by changing her mindset, it breaks my heart. So I also, and we know I'm sure you do, I want to hear what you say to them. You know, I also arm them for dealing with these comments, if it were only true that it was just stress. Or you'll be so happy to know that the research shows that infertility causes stress. Stress doesn't cause it. Does that make you feel better, Aunt Fanny? I mean, giving her a hint, hint, hint. Rena, what do you say when people come in and they're dealing with families that really, you know, think this is against nature?
Rena: Sure. Yeah, we talk about, you know, how to navigate it, right? And whatever they're comfortable with. You know, maybe they say, oh, we're saving for a house, or we want to travel, you know, maybe they come up, I mean that's a deflection. You know, sometimes maybe people decide to be real and say, well, this is really hard. You know, but I I always work with people and remind them they have to set someone up for success. So if they want them to support them, they need to let them know what it is that they need, right? Do they want to talk about it? Do they want to be checked in on? Do they not want to talk about it? And figure out how to, you know, again, set somebody up for success. And we also talk a lot about impact versus intent. So, you know, this Aunt Fanny character, right? Who, you know, a lot of people have it, you know, her intention is good, right? Her intention is it's not bad, it's not coming from a bad place, right? The impact, right, because she has no idea. What does she know? She's Aunt Fanny, she doesn't know anything, you know, she's whatever. The impact, though, on someone that's going through this, right? It's super triggering. But to help people also be able to navigate this and be able to ground themselves, take a step back and realize, okay, this is this is my thing, right? This person does not mean ill will or harm. And so let me also be able to take a step back and say, you know what, I'm so grateful that I have people in my life that that care about me to ask, right? And and care about me to want to be involved and take that lens on it also.
Dara: That's a nice reframe. But that I'm sure can be challenging if you're thrown into the mix and and don't necessarily don't really know what Aunt Fanny's all about. Like in the beginning, I'm sure it could be tough. I'm sure once you know how Aunt Fanny rolls, it could it could be perhaps easier to navigate work with it.
Dr. Witkin: You know, we're always saying men don't share enough and they really should share more the way we do. And then the truth is that we have been trained all our lives, we meaning women versus men, because there are cultural differences, there are built-in differences or whatever. But we've been trained to when someone asks us a question to answer, we've been trained to be very social. And I think a lot of women probably need your permission, Rena, and my permission to not answer every question asked of them, but to take control.
Rena: Totally. I was working on that with a client earlier today. We were talking about the exact same thing, right? You don't need to give an explanation. If you don't want to do something, you don't need to say why. You don't need to have someone say, okay, that's an acceptable reason. You can just say no, period. That's it. So sorry, I'm unable to make this. You know, would would love to see you another time. End of discussion.
Dr. Witkin: Especially if it's a baby shower or if it's an event where, you know, your sister-in-law will show up pregnant. You don't have to make yourself go.
Rena: Totally. You know what I'm so tired of in this day and age in this world is that I don't know if men feel the same way, but this, I guess, responsibility that we feel as women, and I am gonna make a, I hope, a safe assumption that all three of us feel that, right? To show up and to all of these things, right? And all of these responsibilities and always, you know, feel like you have to say yes, you have to quote unquote do the right thing, even when it just massively taxes us and really drains us, right? To be able to say, no, I'm really sorry, I can't, I can't make that, you know, whatever. Frankly, because right, like I want to just sit on my couch and and watch TV tonight. You know, whatever. It doesn't matter what your reason is, but to be able to just say no and have that be okay.
Dr. Witkin: So what I did for myself was number one, add myself to my list of loved ones, meaning so what you were saying, Rena, and I'm sure what you do, Dara, too. I saw myself doing for everybody and wanting to anticipate, not just doing what they might need or want, but also anticipating what they might need and want, and doing that too. And there came a point where I said, I'm not gonna take anyone off my list, but I'm gonna add myself. And it really for me made a big difference. I didn't feel guilty because I didn't take anyone else off the list, I didn't stop doing for everybody else, but I did add myself. I did say I'm entitled to, and my relationship with myself is really important, equally important, not more important, but it's forever. And as I got older, I really said I never want to look back and say would have, could have, shoulda, if it's things under my control. I mean, obviously, you know, I haven't been to the Olympics and I would have loved to, but I'm saying things under my control, which includes, as you were saying, Rena, taking care of yourself even half as well as we take care of everybody else, or giving ourselves permission to stay home. And we would say, like, Dara, you you have a cold you're working on. I would say to you, listen, tonight, go home, get under the blankets, watch TV, don't do any of the work tonight. But for you to say it to yourself might be much more difficult.
Dara: Of course. It is, especially if it's not the norm. And I I made a good point. I think as women, we are natural nurturers, yet we nurture others. We usually nurture ourselves last. It's not just putting yourself on your list, bumping yourself up. Well on the top, but close to the top.
Rena: I love that because I've realized I have not been on my list in a long time and it's taking a toll. But also what I want to work to change too is sort of how it's almost, and I don't know if the two of you feel the same way, but I find that if I do share with someone that, you know, oh, I'm running or I'm exercising or whatever, that's my outlet, that a lot of times amongst women, it's met with sort of this like look of disdain and sort of this very sarcastic, like, oh, how nice that you're able to have time for yourself. I would I could do really, yes. And I just want to be sometimes like, come on, do you know like what my life is like? And it's like time for myself. Like I work so hard. I get up at five in the morning. You know, it's not like this is some luxury. I just make the time and it's a non-negotiable, but sometimes I feel like it's it's looked down on. It's almost this weird shaming of taking care of yourself. And I really want to change that dialogue among women. Like we should celebrate taking care of ourselves and and doing for ourselves, not sort of this like, oh well, but a what a luxury for you.
Dr. Witkin: Because if self-care is a thing that you're into or you're not, rather than you know, the way we should be living our lives.
Rena: Right. Like I love how getting eight hours of sleep is suddenly this luxury.
Dr. Witkin: So generally, what most people do is they put more things on their to-do list than they can possibly do. And so at the end of the day, their own special time is the middle of the night, as you were saying, Rena. So now you're not you're not only taking care of everybody else all day, but you're not sleeping at night because that's when you have your own time alone. I say show the whole family that you're declaring some time for yourself, because that will teach the kids that they can do that for themselves. And yeah, it'll teach your sons that you know they're partners and teach your daughters that they're partners, that everyone's entitled to that. So I think it's a good, if we need an excuse, it's a good lesson that we're teaching everyone around us. That's what everyone's entitled to.
Rena: I love that. Totally. Let's normalize the importance of taking time for ourselves, right? And not sort of make it this competition of who's doing the most and therefore falling apart the most.
Dr. Witkin: And they win.
Rena: Right? Exactly.
Dr. Witkin: Type A of the year.
Rena: Right, exactly.
Dara: I think that's a great shift.
Rena: So a slight diversion from ovum donation, but but I I think I mean we could have a second podcast just on this topic because I think it's really important.
Dr. Witkin: And I love you're connecting that, Rena, because bottom line is if you do ovum donation, it's your choice, which lowers your stress. It really has to be by choice. Don't do it until you really embrace it and choose it. I'm not saying you love the idea that you need it, but if you see it as, okay, this is gonna give me, as you were saying before, Rena, this is gonna give me the baby and a healthy baby. So I'm very excited about that aspect of it. So you're choosing it, you're embracing it, and you see it as part of something you're giving yourself. And it's in line with what we're talking about.
Rena: Right. It's it's changing the language also from I have to do this to I am choosing to do this.
Dr. Witkin: And thank God it's available.
Rena: Exactly. You know, I'm choosing to do this, I'm grateful that I have access to, you know, top medical care. I'm grateful I have access to this process. I'm grateful I have access to be able to provide for this financially and to look at it from that lens instead of, oh, I I have to do this.
Dr. Witkin: Think about it also medically. Women were always able to get sperm donation. Every woman, as we said it when we started talking, everyone on the face of the earth who has a baby starts with sperm donation. There has to be someone giving her a sperm. But it's only really in our lifetime that there's such a thing as egg donation. And it's a donor to us. There's no baby in that egg, it's a donor to us, so then we can then go and grow a baby. So it really is pretty special and something to be excited about that it really does exist now and in our lifetime. That's a great gift.
Rena: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Well, always such a pleasure to have you on, Dr. Witkin.
Dr. Witkin: OG, the three of us.
Rena: That's right, we are. We've been together a long time, folks.
Dara: Yes, but six years of our podcast, it's pretty remarkable.
Dr. Witkin: Wow, congratulations. Congratulations, that's great. And we've all been working together for a lot longer than that.
Rena: That's true. Time flies when you’re having fun.
Dr. Witkin: Yeah, right. When you're having babies.
Rena: That's right. Exactly. So thank you so much for coming on. I feel like the I I mean, I'm going to put myself in it. The three of us just look like we did from the day we started, which is oh sure. Pretty amazing.
Dr. Witkin: I mean I don't have the same filter that you do, but I'm going to get anyway, I love chatting with the three of you anytime.
Rena: Likewise. So you may remember or not, but the way we like to wrap our podcasts is by saying something that we are grateful for. So a gratitude that you have.
Dr. Witkin: Can I start by saying as I did a little earlier that I'm grateful that you're doing this because when I see patients as you do very often they literally have no one to speak to. And I really worry about their going to you know chat groups with unknown compositions saying things that my attempts to sound empathetic but aren't necessarily accurate or going to celebrity stories who are in their 50s and saying they had a baby naturally with their own A names. But instead I really am grateful that now more than ever because we've been all of us during a long time there really is more information. There really is more sharing and more openness and and that's what the two of you are doing that I think you should be blessed for it.
Rena: Oh that is so lovely.
Dara: That is lovely.
Rena: That is lovely. Okay Dara, what about you?
Dara: Lots to be grateful for I'm grateful for my breath the fact that I could still breathe in my even though I am a little stuffy I'm grateful for my health I'm grateful that I'm able to let out all the the junk that's in my body so looking at the colds in a different way. But back to you, Dr. Witkin, I'm actually grateful to to remind myself that it is healthy and important to give myself time for me and that it is not selfish. It is a gift and it's a great reminder for myself and also a great reminder to my patients that it's not something that we should take for granted and something to look at every day. I think it's something that we should destigmatize because it is something that as women we're givers we do to everyone else often at the expense of our our own health and happiness and joy. So I definitely want to help in that shift.
Rena: I love that I will say that I am grateful for and I taking this from a client because I really liked it is conscious conversations or conscious connections and being able to you know show up today and not only with you ladies talk about the topic at hand and you know have a really interesting conversation about that, but just be able to connect on multiple levels and really be able to talk particularly to other women about real things and what we're all struggling with and being able to have that real genuine and authentic conversation with other like minded people. So I'm very grateful for that.
Dara: Beautiful. A-woman!
Dr. Witkin: I love that that's great.
Dara: Yeah Dr. Witkin thank you so much again you are always welcome back you are my favorite guest don't tell anyone else but it's always a a great time with you and we appreciate the time that you're taking out of your busy day.
Dr. Witkin: I will come anytime you want on one condition that both of you after all this time call me Georgia.
Rena: Oh man that's
Dara: That's a hard one
Rena: That's gonna be that's gonna be tough for me I'm gonna have to to do some deep work on that well thank you so much and we look forward to having you on again.
Dr. Witkin: Thank you.